Automation Ladies
The podcast where girls talk industrial automation!
We interview people from all walks of life in the Industrial Automation industry. Through a personal narrative/conversational framework we talk about PLCs, SCADA, IIoT, Machine Vision, Industrial Robots, Pneumatics, Control Systems, Process Automation, Factory Automation, Systems Integration, Entrepreneurship, Career Stories, Personal Journeys, Company Culture, and any other interesting and timely topic we want to discuss.
Co-Hosted by Nikki Gonzales, Ali G & Courtney Fernandez - find them on LinkedIn!
Automation Ladies
Exploring Cybersecurity in Industrial Automation w/ Michael Grollmus
Cybersecurity has become one of the fastest-growing fields, offering a wealth of job opportunities.
Join us as we discuss the challenges and advancements in cybersecurity in industrial automation with Michael Grollmus, CEO of Grollmus, highlighting the crossroads of tradition and innovation in this evolving sector.
Together we investigate the mesh of cybersecurity into industrial automation and the dire need for improved practices and the shortage of skilled professionals, showcasing the field’s limitless opportunities and reach.
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Co-Hosts are Alicia Gilpin Director of Engineering at Process and Controls Engineering LLC, Nikki Gonzales Director of Business Development at Weintek USA, and Courtney Fernandez Robot Master at FAST One Solutions.
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Get in touch with us at automationladies.io!
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pre-recorded episode of Automation Ladies. It is June, but we may actually have this conversation come out in season four, which should be sometime later this year, and if you're listening to this way, later it's 2024. But yes, we are getting close to end of our recording season here for season three. We've hit 31 episodes in season three already.
Speaker 1:somehow, ali, I had no idea, uh that's awesome our team is telling us time to take a break, um, but we love what we do. We get to talk to so many great people in the industry that it's very hard to put the breaks, pump the brakes on having these conversations. Uh, so I'm very excited to today kind of hopefully leave most of the talking again to ali um and our wonderful guest today, michael. Uh, how do you pronounce your name? I should stop doing it because I might do it wrong.
Speaker 3:Um, we should just ask you on air you pronounce your name for us yeah, at first, thank you very much that you invite me to to your podcast. So, um, and my, my sure name, uh, I pronounce it grolmoose, yeah, grolmoose, uh, but, but, uh, I, I think it's, it's quite easy. So you call me michael and uh, then you don't have to challenge uh with my sure name yeah.
Speaker 1:So I did that with kathy rinny for many years, thinking I just never said her last name and then it took me two years to realize I was saying it wrong. So now I try to just confront that challenge head on. Yeah, is it actually Rinney? It's Rinney. Both of us were getting it wrong Wow. Yeah, and. I also learned not to take my cues on how to say names from Allie, because I'm in the substance too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I was gonna say Growlmoose, but yeah, growlmoose okay, but for me, names for me are also a very big challenge. So this is also one thing because I love industry automation, because there are deep in it one and zero and I don't have to spell any names. This is one reason because I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no room for interpretation. There it's a universal language, and where are you?
Speaker 3:Michael, well, I'm in Germany, quite in the middle of germany, uh, near frankfurt, um, also a big city in germany, it's uh mainz, but I think uh, it's not so international like frankfurt. So I think, munich, frankfurt, hamburg, uh, these are the cities. Well, everybody knows, when you talk about Germany, or Nuremberg, the SPS fair, of course, the Hannover fair, hannover, right, of course.
Speaker 2:Is there a lot of manufacturing there?
Speaker 3:An automatic what?
Speaker 2:Are you near a lot of manufacturing where you are in Germany?
Speaker 3:I think we have a lot of manufacturers around us the nearest pharmacy, böhringer, ingelheim, sanofi, aventus, but also car manufacturers. So you have a lot of factories, plants around you in Germany, because Germany also is a quite small country. So everything is near instead of uh, so it's it's. Everything is near, yeah, instead of the us, yeah, it's. It's a bit, a little bit different, different.
Speaker 2:So you have a short ways yeah yeah, how long does it take to get to like siemens headquarters?
Speaker 3:uh, so so to nuremberg. Uh, I think it's about a little bit over three hours with the car. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:And how many times have you been there?
Speaker 3:Sometimes, not so often my brother is there quite often because they create the tier selection tool for Siemens and so they have a lot of meetings with Siemens. We are a partner. But I'm not so often in Nuremberg but I visit in Frankfurt the Siemens office, yeah, the office there, and so I think every two months I visit a Siemens office or a little bit, a small fair. So we talk a lot with Siemens, or Siemens come also to us and we talk about new stuff and so on. So this is also one of the challenges that we knew the newest things which are already there from Siemens and which will come in the future, so that we can say our customers okay, well, maybe have a look at this part, go this way, because the future will come and then you can use the new function, use the new benefits.
Speaker 3:Last week I have a call with one of Siemens promoter for the new S7-1200. So he explained to me what's new in the new hardware and I hope at the end of the year I will have one of the new controllers on my desk. Nice, because I see it in your background. There there's a S7. 1200., 1500.
Speaker 2:1200. I was going to ask you do you do any work with back off?
Speaker 3:yes, also, I'm myself. I'm not a back off expert, uh, but but we have uh experts for back off. Uh, back off isn't grown up. Uh, poc manufacturer and uh, so you, I think if you work in germany with industry automation, then then you have to handle with back off also in the future and and kuka, even though now that's chinese. Uh kuka uh, interesting question. Kuka crumbs comesKA comes from the car manufacturer VW. Vw built KUKA. Then KUKA split to an own factory, to an own company.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 3:I think four or five years ago, a Chinese holding by a cooker, and so now it's Chinese.
Speaker 1:But still manufactured in Germany? Or did they move production over to China? Do you know Not that? You need to be a spokesperson here.
Speaker 3:It depends, it depends which kind. So I think everyone knows German cars.
Speaker 2:The best cars. Just kidding, they're very good cars.
Speaker 3:It depends, yeah, it depends, what you look for. But there's a big challenge in Germany for the car manufacturers, also every manufacturer which needs high energy, because the energy costs are very high in Germany. But we also get new manufacturers from the pharma industry. I think Lily, ellie, I think it's america yeah yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, that's it. Uh, they built a complete new uh plant factory on a green field. So some goes away, some comes new. I think it's. It's every time the same same game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay well, ali, you know I'm gonna interrupt you and start by asking our standard question, so we can get this yes, sorry, yes a lot of our format. That's okay. So, michael um, can you tell us, give us an introduction to yourself and your background and kind of how you came to be in this industry, what you're doing now?
Speaker 1:because we really like to hear people's interesting stories, because I think when most of us started back in the day, there wasn't and this may have been different in Germany, but at least here in the US there isn't really a career path to controls engineering it kind of happens to people at some point in their careers. So if you can give us a little backstory and introduction to yourself and then maybe kind of end up like what your company does today, what you do, and then we'll have probably plenty of questions when the time comes.
Speaker 2:Spoiler alert he has a company, Okay.
Speaker 3:So the truth is there was no other chance for me Because my father has his company I was born in and no, just kidding, I also can do something else. But I was a little child Then I grew up with technical. My father loved technical and we play with the technical. Uh, when I was a teenager, uh, I, I earn a little bit money to help in the company, uh, to work with s7, uh, s5, s5, yeah, yeah, the the old, old stuff you have semen in your blood.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3:I have no other choice, that's cool.
Speaker 3:But I love it. And well, there was a point where I decided I want to be one of the experts so that someone like you invite me to a podcast and then I can tell about my knowledge, about it and um, well it's, it grows up, I learned that I'm good in it and people say, oh, you're good, you can explain us. Um, also, I, I have a great chance, um, because there was a company. Um, my brother also worked in the company. We do this together. And also it's a great chance because in the industry automation you can earn good money and so you love it, you earn good money, you like it, so why should I do something else? The only thing it's. It's a little bit special when I talk, uh to to the family, when I want to explain my, my kids or my wife or my friends what are you doing? What's this?
Speaker 2:yeah, uh, it just goes like this yeah. Yeah, that sounds so boring. Yeah, yeah, I had a guy say that he saw my hat and it said process and controls engineering and his comment was that's so boring and I was just like, well, maybe to you. But, for me, it's how I eat.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's true, I always try to explain. There's a Coca-Cola. Do you know how the Coke comes into the bottle? No, it's in the supermarket and I can buy it In the supermarket. But there's so much stuff behind it and this is the thing. I love it. It's also so different kinds. Sometimes you need a screwdriver when you open a cabinet control. Then you need your laptop to do software. Right now I I work a lot of industry, networks, cyber security. There are so a lot of stuff. One thing I I have to tell I was invited from from the german military for the biggest nato training for cyber security, um to um to consult the german military, um for the training, because in the training scenario there 1200, which simulates um energy plant and um my I I have to secure this and um well to to protect it for um hacker and help them pack it.
Speaker 2:Hey, I was so that you can protect it yeah, so that you can protect it.
Speaker 3:Well, the idea that, yeah, yeah, I was a part of the blue team.
Speaker 2:yeah, can protect it so that you can protect it.
Speaker 3:The idea that you, yeah, yeah, I was part of the blue team to protect it against the red team, and these are things. Well, they are so great so I can tell I was a part of the biggest NATO cybersecurity training and well, this is one thing, or one other things why I? I love industry automation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm gonna.
Speaker 1:It's not just a us thing, it's a world thing yeah, ali, I'm gonna chime in with a little personal story here.
Speaker 1:Um, my dad so I grew up in iceland but my dad's a control, he's an electrical engineer, he's a controls engineer but has never worked with like plcs, like siemens and stuff.
Speaker 1:He does microcontrollers um, because he started working for an oem and built the control system for their, their little machine and and so on. But at the time that he was doing that, back in the late 90s uh, I guess, or in the 90s, they were starting to do wireless telemetry and monitoring weather stations and monitoring fishing vessels, and so remote monitoring was kind of starting up at that time. And so he was able to go I think it was EU Fisheries Commission that was trying to implement some technology, standardize something to where they could track the boats and their safety and different things like that. And so my dad got invited to be part of some EU commission or some sort of cooperation like this NATO thing, and he represented Iceland or maybe some of the telco companies. He was working with his employer, something of that nature, but that's actually what got him in touch with Rakel, which is a UK company. Then it ended up hiring him to the UK and then bringing us to the US.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:Being involved in controls and these multinational kind of cooperations around standards or things that are critical in our world. If you get involved in those sorts of things, they can lead to great opportunities and in our case, I don't know that we would have ever moved to the US if it hadn't been for my dad being involved in that sort of situation. He's emerging technologies.
Speaker 1:He's also an engineer that was found to be good at explaining things to non-engineers which is a huge skill set, I think, to be able to teach customer facing when you also know what's going on behind the scenes but I think it's also a good example that knowledge opens the door in the whole world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is also one thing uh I I fight for. Yeah, uh, also I share my knowledge. Um, only, of course I I earn money with it, yeah, but also, uh, it's, it's a kind of mission, yeah, so, um, there is a in germany. You say, uh, if knowledge is is the only thing you, you share and you don't get a half, you double it yeah that's a good saying.
Speaker 1:You know, translate it to english is a little I had to think about that for a second.
Speaker 3:okay, maybe, maybe, then you can later you can give me the right translation. Yeah, can you say it in German? The original? Yeah, wissen ist das einzige, was sich verdoppelt, wenn du es teilst. Ai can translate. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:We're German-speaking listeners, which I'm sure we have a few. We've definitely met quite a few Germans here in the US. The manufacturing sector is a strong knowledge transfer mechanism, I guess, between our great nations. I've worked for two German companies here in the US.
Speaker 2:I love so many German companies? I, I was gonna ask you a spicy question and we can like debate, like taking it out later, but like no, no, you have to ask does anyone in germany use alan bradley on purpose?
Speaker 3:uh, yeah, only if they have to but what's an instance of having to?
Speaker 2:is there such thing? Oh, maybe like a customer from outside of germany wants to maintain their own style.
Speaker 3:Is that the?
Speaker 2:only real reason why yeah, the, the.
Speaker 3:the normal thing is there is an um us company which comes to germany and in us they use uh rockwell automation and then you have to use it in germany also and some years later, uh, somebody goes to the control cabinet, threw, threw it out and built a back of Siemens or something, a European one. But the question I like the question because I also want to make the question like this so how many manufacturers use Siemens or backhoff in us?
Speaker 2:so very little, but it's growing and I think that that like that's kind of what siemens is very interested in growing that as much as possible. Um, in the us they, they know that like we have our standard as Alan Bradley and and Rockwell. But there are a lot of companies that have been have got upset, perhaps for different reasons, maybe licensing, maybe you know this or that and so they have converted. And so I have heard even we could ask Alicia Lomas, I think she converted an entire I forgot maybe it's like a yogurt line, but like from alan bradley to siemens in the united states. So I mean it is a thing and like as much. I mean we're, we're big enough and we have stuff from everywhere. So we have japanese plcs, we have korean plcs I work with, you know, Korean PLC manufacturers, so we do have so much extra like coming in that like it is a, it is an open market and like, even though we do kind of have, you know, a winner of that market which is an American manufacturer, and so they are the strongest in North America. And so they are the strongest in North America.
Speaker 2:That doesn't mean that like and that a lot of companies aren't moving, but also just machinery that comes from another place. If you buy a German machine, unless you pay them really good to like upgrade to the Alan Bradley you want, you may just take it with the Siemens that's in there and we do have. That's the second most common programmer in the U? S. I mean, obviously everyone can service Alan Bradley here, like our, our engineers. But a lot of our engineers, maybe like 30%, can service Siemens. Okay so, so it's just. But that's the selling point. That like hurts Siemens is there's a lot less people to service it. Where you are there's no one to service Alan Bradley.
Speaker 2:So you might be worth some money in Germany as an Alan Bradley person. But, like, if you know Siemens, that doesn't matter. But you come here Siemens like can make you good money because there's a lot of places that do have it. But I've also heard in the past that people that are experts at Rockwell and Allen Bradley when they take on Siemens projects, they usually lose money. It's traditionally because they don't have all that experience, like unless it's someone who's successfully executed multiple Siemens projects. You end up with with people losing money.
Speaker 2:And then the other issue that has always been talked about in the U S against Siemens is the support. So I bet in in Germany the support is really good, but outside of Germany because there isn't as many places in the US to even support that they would call and they just don't get help. And so that becomes a very negative to the customers. Where you know, when they redid TIA Portal, they went and asked you know the integrators and the programmers what do you want? What would make you like this more or make it easier for whatever? So they got feedback from the integrators and from the programmers and yeah.
Speaker 2:So I wish more companies would do that, because I don't feel that. Yeah, rockwell does that as often as they could, but at the same time Rockwell still committed to the success of you know, it's American partners. But yeah, there's definitely. You know they don't want to admit that, but, like every now and then, they'll lose a deal and they'll just not a new, a new, uh, a new plant may not be put in with alan bradley because and that might be siemens- yeah um, and yeah, even their dcs pcs7, I've you know yeah even me in the uS like have been trained on PCS7, so that means something yeah um, even though I've never executed a project on that.
Speaker 2:So that's my long-winded answer for that sorry so, so also, it's uh.
Speaker 3:The answer is uh.
Speaker 1:Missing of knowledge, yeah, and also support for the manufacturing, yeah we actually one of our earliest episodes in season one we talked with aaron prather. Um, he now works for astm international, which is a standards organization for robotics, but at the time he was at fedex and he mentioned that, for instance, they executed a large project. Um that they had in the us was all allen badly and in europe they spec'd all siemens because they needed their local technicians and plant, you know, people to be able to support the stuff, and here we still have uh. It's harder to find a siemens uh distributor and one that has a lot of expertise and a lot of knowledge and a lot of capacity, as well as just technicians that are trained on it.
Speaker 3:So I have to come to US to solve this problem. Yes, yes, yes, come on over. I go and ask my wife. Yeah, ask her if she wants to. So I don't think so that I will come to you. Come on over, but it's quite interesting. So it's a thing of the national. So in America, allen Bradley, in Europe Siemens, but also Schneider Electrics, also in Africa, schneider is very big. If you go to Asia, especially China, there's Siemens, also very big business, and of course the Japanese Mitsubishi and so on. They, they have also a lot of experience with their own controllers and so on.
Speaker 2:Siemens makes like plc's just for china that they don't sell outside of china, but those machines end up in the us anyway. So we either take it out or like translate the Chinese symbols inside because it's like an N7 300 or something like we. We see those randomly. We're like what is this? So, yeah, they're not supposed to leave, but they're. They have a hard time keeping it from leaving.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think to solve this problem, I think standardization yeah and uh, there's also one thing I want to talk about you, uh, maybe opcua, yeah. So uh, I I love opcua because it's it doesn't depend which um vendor you use. Uh, it works with, I also think, with Rockwell, or.
Speaker 2:I don't know Everyone, including Rockwell, Okay perfect, yeah, and so it does, it does yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, and this is one thing I love OPC UA because it's simple, it works, it doesn't matter which kind of controller you use, and I think this is also one thing for the future. So every customer I ask how do you get your information out of your PLC? And they say, well, I use this, I program this and I use this. And they say, no, please use OPC UA. This is the future. No, please use OPC UA, this is the future. Maybe in the future we go to the field level where we use the field bus technology. Maybe OPC UA TSN in the future we have only one field bus for every controller. But we will see what the future will bring.
Speaker 1:Do you have any other future predictions or trends that you're seeing that you think are gonna take hold?
Speaker 3:uh, well, um, they're, they are so, or, I think the the biggest challenge is that there are so many challenges, so that you, that you find people to solve the challenges a little bit and I see it in Germany especially, or in Europe, I think maybe you have the same problems to find employees. It's very, very hard. Every customer I talk we look for for maintenance guys, for programming guys uh, we do. You know what a poc is perfect here, you can start tomorrow. Yeah, you're hired. Yeah, yeah, a little bit in this way, and I think this, this is, uh, the biggest challenge. And then, um, you have so many challenges, you get new. Now the word is missing. I skipped a sentence and I will come later to this but communication to get data, but to get the right data, because if you have data and you have many data, well, you need the right data.
Speaker 3:Also, for the future AI well, we will see what happens. Also, to use AI to generate code it's also a big thing, but it only works with standardization and there I, I know it from siemens, uh, from the customers there is no standardization and then ai would not be worked. Yeah, um, the big car, manifest car manufacturers well, they, they have a good standardization, um, bmw uh, for example, they're very good in it and they work really near together with Siemens also to develop new function for the TIA portal, and so there are so many things for the future. Cyber security is a big thing. If you look to the wars, um in in the near east, um, the infrastructure, uh, water supply in the ukraine, uh, there is a new kind of war and um, so you, you have to do something in your cyber security. Yeah, um well, I, I have uh, but it's a german youtube channel that I show some hacks, how you hack uh a seven.
Speaker 1:It's, it's so easy, yeah, it's so easy that's not good, but that's cool but I also show the solutions, yeah okay, good, there you go, so I actually was in san francisco a couple of weeks and I don't watch TV at home, like we have Netflix on the TV and apps, but I don't have just regular television with like commercials and news.
Speaker 1:So I turned on the TV in my hotel room and it was the local news on and one of the first stories that came up was a warning from the EPA, which is the Environmental Protection Agency here in the US, about a string of recent cyber attacks on water utilities and by Russian speaking hackers is how they put it. So I think they were trying to say it's the Russians, but we have no proof, but we know that they speak Russian. I don't know, I don't get into politics and of course we can't you know, but uh, I, that was just the local news, um, and it said this this warning study from the epa says that at least 70 percent of us water utilities are unwoefully unprepared for this kind of thing, and I'm not sure if these hackers are really if it's warfare in this case or it's just ransoming or whatever right, but the water, the utilities, are a huge target.
Speaker 1:And I think I mean it's kind of obvious like they're underfunded, they're outdated, they're critical. They're critical to people's health and safety and wellness and industry and everything Like. If our water supply goes out, I would say most of our manufacturing also goes out.
Speaker 3:So does you know almost everything else, but it's most of the time it's quite easy. Uh, the one question I ask, uh, my customers is uh, do you have a password on your plc? And I think over 80% said no and the other 20% yes, but it's every time the same One, two, three, four Like this. They didn't use password management tools for their OT infrastructure and it's so easy to solve this problem. But this is the kind where we are right now and the low fruit yeah, where we have to start. Yeah, low-hanging fruit, right.
Speaker 1:I just saw a video from our our friend, dave garcia at icon tech. Um, he sells some cyber security like ot equipment and he was just mentioning he had this conversation with the customer and he was bringing up this cyber security features like, hey, have you looked at the latest of this switch? Right, rather than buying the legacy model of of managed switch, have you looked at this one that includes cybersecurity features? And his customer said and it was probably a systems integrator or something he said no, my customer doesn't care.
Speaker 1:And he said oh, do you guys not discuss this? And he's like, yeah, well, the password is password and the admin is like. They don't even use it as a managed switch. They just rip Like if something breaks, they they replace it. They're not thinking about it. When it does come up, they avoid the issue yeah so I really don't know how you know, in the scenario of right, it's those people running the plant day to day. They don't have budget, they don't have time bringing the issue to them without an immediate resolution.
Speaker 3:Protection that doesn't cost money, probably you know they're not going to have time for it, but it's kind of a situation. The one thing is time, the other thing is knowledge. Also, there are so, so many old windows versions. Everybody say never change your running system.
Speaker 3:Yeah, don't touch it yeah it works and, uh well, time, money, uh, but also the knowledge. Yeah, this, this is a big thing and, um well, for, for the knowledge we work on, on a solution we create for the industry automation, a knowledge platform, a training platform, especially for the industry automation, is that in.
Speaker 3:English too. Yeah, we created in German and English Cool, and especially for Siemens and Backoff. And maybe you know Udemy, the learning platform. Yeah, the problem or not the problem, but on Udemy you get like on YouTube you get videos, you get PDFs, you get files to download. But for Siemens there's one challenge If you want to train with TIA portal, you have to install it. You need the license. For some basic things you can use trial license, but for other things there is no trial license available. Trial license, but for other things there is no trial trial license available. And here's the idea that we have virtual machines with digital twins to train. You only need a browser where you can use the virtual machine and to work with with the twin, to train with the twin, and this is one thing we are right now to start. So maybe you also will find the next month some information by LinkedIn.
Speaker 2:That's exciting. Give us up to date.
Speaker 1:Because, by the time we air this episode, you might already have it out. This episode, uh, you might already have it out, um, and so we can add it to your. You can update your guest profile, also on automationladiesio, with links to any of this stuff, so listeners if you're hearing this, um, and it's way past june, then we may have links in our show notes to where you can actually find this training platform. Um, if it's not, it's not public yet, right? Do you have a teaser or a website?
Speaker 3:where people can sign up like a waiting list or anything like that. Yeah, it's uh skillworkio, skill skilled or skill, skill, skill, like uh to have the skill and work dot io okay, s-k-i-l-l.
Speaker 1:W-o-r-k dot io skillwork dot io.
Speaker 3:Maybe this will solve the solution for the missing knowledge in the US, for Siemens and maybe for back off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay that captures a little bit. I would be surprised, though, if aging water utilities would be running. Any of them would be running on siemens or back off, uh, but you never know. Uh, I, I don't know what's uh, what's in siemens, yes, back off.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, siemens, maybe because different skids again, you never know where they came, where you're gonna get, like a skid that came from germany, yeah, or just europe, um, but I, I guess I'm like I used to work for a, uh, probat verka. They do coffee, um, and they are, they make coffee roasters, um, and so they have the US version of it Probat USA and they just used so many German companies. That's how I learned about all the German automation companies there are and there's so many, and even in the beginning, like we were using Phoenix Contact as part of our standard and then I learned about Wago.
Speaker 2:You used the PLcs from them also not their plcs okay just everything else in the panel, like this phoenix contact, and then you show alan bradley in there okay, okay um, but the first time I saw like those push-in connectors and I really loved um that.
Speaker 2:You know, those terminal blocks um, those famous terminal blocks um mer mer electronic yeah um, there's just so many like festo, um kuka, um yeah, just really cool companies um that do make amazing products and all come from germany yeah, and in germany we have a lot of we call it the hidden champions, yeah, and also in industry automation, balof, sick, sensors.
Speaker 3:There are so many and well, I think they have very, very good products. But also, of course, I think Keyence is US or Keyence is Japanese. Okay, yeah, of course you have worldwide. But I think it's for German, it's something special that we are very good in this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it makes sense as you have been a powerhouse manufacturer for, for you know, the I guess the limited history that I know makes sense that you would be on the forefront of developing products for smart manufacturing because you're using them and then, of course, you have a lot of expertise and, and you know, just a huge emphasis always on engineering, and I think you guys have done a much better job of emphasizing the value of manufacturing as a profession, as a career, versus the US has kind of played the value of manufacturing as a profession, as a career, versus the US has kind of played the manufacturing is for people that aren't smart enough to go to college. Okay.
Speaker 2:We wrecked ourselves.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, and then people go to engineering school to be engineers, but they don't really know what all of the different engineering jobs that are available are, especially within manufacturing. Because, because we I don't know why we keep all of our plants very secret. Like you said, your friend, he just buys coca-cola from the grocery store. It has no idea how it's made, how the bottles filled, like why don't we all grow up knowing that? I don't, I don't understand, like why this, the how things are made, is so secret?
Speaker 3:I think it's to give away the secret recipe to show a bottle being filled and how cool that is well, well, I, I think, uh, if, uh, if you ask a little boy, what, what will he uh be in the future? Uh, policeman, fireman, fireman, yeah, if I ask my daughter, then she said something with horses, yeah, and I also tried to say industry automation, industry automation. And they said oh, that's boring, don't tell me about this. So my six-year-old daughter, on the other hand, desperately wants to be an engineer like ali. Oh, okay, okay, how old is she?
Speaker 3:she's six okay, okay, so my daughter is seven. I, I, I, I didn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she could do horse automation though we could get her hooked up with Vinny, my dad actually my dad worked on a project to upgrade the control system of a horse training machine. That is like a water treadmill for horses that she gets horses all day. She's got to do testing testing.
Speaker 1:I also the truth is, though, people should. I just want to make sure they know this is an option, and then they can choose horses or nursing or whatever they want. Right, not everybody's going to want to do this, but most people are not going to want to do it if they have no idea that it even exists, of course.
Speaker 3:Of course I also repair a running machine for horses. Where was the Siemens PLC inside? I also make a little HMI with unicorns to show her. Look, you can manufacture unicorns in this machine. But it was enough for her to decide this. But yeah, well, it's also right. It's so hidden you didn't see what's behind. And well, another thing is if I look to software developers for other systems, they earn more money than a software developer for PLC systems. And I think, if you look at the whole thing because you need more than to develop software for the PLC, you have to know the process, you have to know how it works, design control cabinet. So for me often the question why is there so a pay gap between? Yeah, but I have no answer.
Speaker 2:I think it's the market that's on our side, too, everyone wants to work for Google, apple, all of the, you know, facebook, the big, whatever, fang, and yeah, like, we don't pay as much on this other side. So, if you can make it as that, the only issue is that it's volatile, so there's always layoffs, and so you can have this amazing job and then it's gone, and then maybe you can get another one and maybe you can't, whereas right now, automation you can't not have a job just for trying, which is, you know, kind of sad, because we need people to be good at what we're doing, but we don't have the people and we can't pay them. Want to be, uh, working for facebook or apple or netflix, or what google? Um, then, uh, yeah, we, so we have the same issue.
Speaker 2:basically like there's, there's more lucrative jobs, so how are we going to get all these people to come hang out with us when there's, technically, you could do less work for more money?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay Like okay, so pay better and you can do all that, like you know, remotely, you don't need as much of yields like skills Cause. To be an effective controls engineer, you need a lot more than just being able to program a PLC. You have to understand what you're programming and why and what it connects to, and then being able to troubleshoot that and purchasing parts. You have to understand what you're programming and why, and what it connects to, and then being able to troubleshoot that.
Speaker 1:And purchasing parts and familiar things. Once you kind of get hooked on the glory, you can oftentimes overlook some of the downsides. But how do we advertise this or promote it as an industry that is attractive over other options? That's a hard sell from the get-go. I think that's a hard sell like from the get-go, I think, because, like ali said, and and I think the last like couple of decades have been very interesting because there are people that grew up that saw these dream jobs at, let's say, google.
Speaker 1:Right, they started off with the whole trend of, you know, giving you lots and lots of perks because you, they want you on site all the time. So they're like well, you don't have to worry about your laundry or your dog or your pet or your kids or anything else. We'll take care of it. You just come and work uh, all you know, all day long. Um, there's a certain you know I, I guess, appeal to that uh kind of fun work environment and, you know, whatever. Of course it's like extreme pressure too, um, but that's a whole lot more attractive from the outside than showing somebody a guy like hunched over a bucket for 14 hours in a dark manufacturing plant that doesn't get a ping-pong table or free drinks or free lunch while they're doing it yeah, okay, so so I I know the the, the payment is no reason to come to US.
Speaker 3:It's not better than in.
Speaker 2:Europe for a PhD programmer. I think again, though…. For Siemens, though, you can demand more money.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:Maybe I have to talk with Siemens, maybe.
Speaker 2:I don't do Alan Bradley. You guys can get your Alan Bradley people wherever you want, but I can do Siemens like German- can get your Allen Bradley people wherever you want, but I can do Siemens like German-style Siemens. So what do you want? You want or what, but also in Europe.
Speaker 3:It's also a big difference. If you work for the process industry, yeah, if you use a PCS7, there's a different you earn. Well, I think of course more PCS is more expensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you do machine PLC stuff, that's never going to make as much money as plant controls or PCS, because it's a higher liability, so everything is just pay scale up. Just because everything's a higher liability, so everything is just pay scale up. Just because everything is insured different. Everything is just such a different money amount that's lost when mistakes are made, small mistakes, huge mistakes.
Speaker 3:So yeah, but I also program or work with PCS7 15 years ago, but I know it's quite easier yeah excuse me.
Speaker 2:I said are you even 50 years old right now? Oh, but.
Speaker 3:But you know.
Speaker 2:I was born in.
Speaker 3:Oh my god, that's true.
Speaker 1:His experience started at zero. Yeah, yeah that's it. Wait, how many years of experience I have to my age you got me there. It doesn't say born into it. She says it's a curse on her bloodline. But either way, yeah, you kind of started way before most people, so I have no other chance.
Speaker 3:yeah, you kind of started way before most people, so I have no other chance. Yeah, my father said I have to do this and I do every time what my parents said yeah, no, just kidding.
Speaker 1:Well, but it's. Did you ever like leave and try something else and come back, or did you stay kind of in the family business? Did you ever leave and try something else and come back?
Speaker 3:Or did you stay in the family business? I studied electronic and automation and then I worked two years for two different companies and it was not clear that I would come back to the company of my father. But there was a time when I when I worked 80 hours a week and the payment was well, not so good and I I learned a lot of, and there I said, okay, well, now I'm ready to go to the family company. I saw the automation world and now I have the experience to do the family business. Cool.
Speaker 1:I see that, like a lot of successful people that work in family business, they'll go elsewhere first because it gives you some perspective, it gives you outside experience yeah, um, yeah, it's less than it's or, I guess, different than just kind of staying in that environment and then not making a choice.
Speaker 1:Like you made a choice to go back because you felt like it was a good fit, and I respect that. I think that my dad kicked me out when I graduated from college. I worked for him from middle school to college and then he said I can't afford you and go find you know, go get some experience. And then we work together now on this and that, but like I don't work for him full time, which is which is great, but I can imagine you went and worked for some strangers and didn't you know? You put in 80 hours of work and you realized at the end of the day who was making the money.
Speaker 3:And then you kind of come to realization, like some of us well, if I'm going to work that hard, at least it should be for me or people that I care about, or you know something like that, right, uh, because it is hard to be in this industry, I think, and like work, a straight nine to five, like easy, um, yeah, if you, if you had to plant, uh, it's commissioning time, yeah, you can only go home when, when the plant is running, yeah, and there's a lot of pressure, yeah, and then then, you, you, uh, you chat with your friends at the weekend so we go to play, uh, to play, uh, soccer, yeah, um, and well, I'm in a nice factory. No, it's not nice, and I have to finish my work and uh, well, so, uh, we're not doing a great job selling it.
Speaker 2:I'll also say, like so many, but I love the same thing. So it's like, why are we just broken? Like there is gotta be a way to describe why we're so fulfilled even though we're not making, you know, the Facebook money, even though you can make the facebook money, but you have to have your own business, um.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I mean I for me, I think it's something about the fact that we literally make the world go around, like the stuff that we do matters I mean facebook and all that is cool but like that's different ways of spending our leisure time, not actually making the world run.
Speaker 2:The way that everybody… If all we have is Facebook, we will start a desk.
Speaker 3:Or in automation technology. If you're an expert, then you can make the rules. Then you say no at the weekend. It didn't work. That's true. You picked your way up, yeah, and yeah, I think this is the key. Yeah, this, this was also every time the key, also for me. Yeah, I'm an expert. If you want something from me, um, then we make it from my rules and but. But to come to this, this is also hard work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you can demand that, but only after you've proven something and to prove it. That's all the work that you had to put in To get to a point where they're like, okay, we need him. He's the only one. There isn't anyone else, because we've already tried other people, because he was not available and we failed miserably. We need him.
Speaker 2:So that's who you want to be. You want to be that person, but you also, uh, yeah, a lot of people, um, overexert themselves and, uh, you know, deliver. What is it, um? If you pull miracles, then then people will start expecting that as your job. So so you shouldn't you shouldn't regularly pull miracles, even though you may be good. You shouldn't do that, um, unless you know, unless the people that are requiring that from you are going to give you more for being able to do that, um, and and to not expect it, or to expect it, but not from just one person, because you're going to burn the people out. So it's like, okay, you can pull a miracle this one time, but the next one has to be on somebody else, because we need to give this person, like, a full recovery of the shit you just made them do. Yeah, I don't know, have you ever had to pull some miracles?
Speaker 1:you do now. Sorry, ali, to cut you off, how much of what you do now is like training and supporting other people versus doing things yourself?
Speaker 3:yeah, uh, so so, uh, we so. So you mean our company or myself Yourself. Okay, so you mean what I do in my daily business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess I'm assuming that your career has evolved from like doing a lot of the work yourself to now you're creating tools and training people. You're the subject matter expert, right? So you get that day. You don't have to work on the weekend or late at night do you? Still do some actual, you know, programming or something you know, of that nature for your company, or have you more so moved into educating or managing or that sort of thing.
Speaker 3:So sometimes I have to do the managing part. But this is not the part which I love. I love the technical part. I love to create trainings um, I love to try new stuff in industry automation, to play around um to create videos for for youtube channel or also for uh for linkedin um and to to look what's new at the market. And uh, well, we are in the training business, uh, so we provide in germany and austria and switzerland uh, trainings also. We do trainings international uh for big companies. Then we do it online, okay, or sometimes we also had a training for a big steel company in Texas where we put every equipment together and fly over to US. We also do this in China. But this is special and this is because we are, well, I think, one of the company with the best and deepest experience in Siemens automation. Yeah, um depend, sometimes we know more than Siemens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you're you're out there you know more directly, I guess, touching it yeah, see, yes.
Speaker 3:Also, siemens ask us uh, what's what's new? How can we develop things? We talk there with siemens and, um, well, I think this this is the key, that that I don't have to work at the weekend, but I also do it because I love it.
Speaker 1:It's pretty hard once you get to this point, I guess, like we do. There's so much information to learn, there's so much stuff to try. We have our things we have to do and then things we'd like to do. Um, and I I personally have a hard time shutting it off as well. There's especially now there's just so much development going on so fast. I tried for the longest time, like the last three years, to kind of ignore the ai and this, all this hype kind of stuff, and focus on, like, what people are really doing. But then it's really that gap is really closing faster than maybe not faster than I expected, but faster than we seen in the past. So it's becoming more and more important to stay on top of some of the new stuff. So we are coming up on time.
Speaker 1:So I'll ask, unless there's something specific that we didn't talk about, that you would love to make sure that we mention. I would like to hear from you, I guess, where can people follow you? You already mentioned like YouTube, but tell us kind of what the names of your channels are, if people can connect with you or follow you on LinkedIn and then your company, where people can, if there are companies here in the us that need more siemens training for their people. Um can they contact you guys? Can you do that with them online, can you? Obviously you can come here and train. Tell us a little bit more about that so that our us audience can engage with you if they want to learn more or follow you or get trained by you guys, yeah, sure.
Speaker 3:So I already said our new platform Well, I will share the link, of course I also said, to LinkedIn. So follow my profile. And well, our YouTube channel just put in the search Grollmoos, then you will find our channel. The only thing it's in German, but the screencast we do it in English, but then you have to translate it with the AI, but today it's not so big problem. Well, and if you need trainings, well, in Germany, switzerland and Austria, there are our offices and well, I also said it, we do it online also in English. We do it for each Siemens topic, also for back-off topics. Visit our website. We also have an English site. So, growlmoosede and well, there will you find all information. Or just send me a message on LinkedIn. I am every day online at LinkedIn. I also thank you very much, uh, to you both.
Speaker 1:uh, we also uh get the connection about linkedin, so this is also a great platform, yeah when I, when I invited anybody that listens to this podcast isn't on linkedin and didn't find us through linkedin, because that's pretty much the only place we are. But if you somehow stumbled across this podcast from somewhere other than LinkedIn, that's kind of you know where we congregate at the moment. I've been asking people actually one follow up question, michael aside from LinkedIn, is there a forum or a website or a community or anywhere else that you find yourself in, your community or your customers? Sharing knowledge or making connections that sort of thing.
Speaker 3:Well, we we decided to go to focus on linkedin.
Speaker 1:Um, this is the the place to be okay that that's what we see as well, that there's a few people like there's a few older forums. That's something frequent, um. I know our friend, frank lamb, has a community um website that he started out of his trainings, but it really seems like the majority of these discussions and these connections are being made on linkedin and, yeah, inbox, inbox, michael, for work. I mean, we, a lot of us, have actually gotten, you know, contracts, collaborations, podcasts, the connections you make on LinkedIn. So if you're listening to this and you've been lurking on LinkedIn and you're not active, I would highly encourage you to become more active. You don't have to put out your own content, just engage with other people.
Speaker 1:If there's any particular area of interest you have, either in learning or something that you're learning, share it. Um, I think at this point, there's enough of us that really share that. Let's share what we know and what we're learning mindset that we can all just add to each other's uh resources and our networks. Um, and we can accomplish more together, whether it's across the sea or you know your neighboring state or, in my case, like even in the same city. There's people that I interact with on linkedin more than I do in in real life, uh, because I really don't want to drive an hour. It's really convenient to be able to ping someone and have a conversation and then a video call or record a podcast so.
Speaker 2:So, now that we've done this phone call for an hour um do we, can we come hang out at your house in germany?
Speaker 3:of course, I have also a small pool, but the weather is. The weather is not so nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah we can handle this yeah, yeah, we can handle this it's, it's, but do you mean it's quiet?
Speaker 3:no, I said we, we will be quiet so we don't make noise in your house. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, yeah, perfect, so I also have a garage, oh yeah okay, I mean that might be so we'll come in the summer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the closest I've been to where you are is Darmstadt. Is that anywhere close?
Speaker 3:No, no, this is close. I think it's a little bit more than half an hour by car. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:Half an hour by car.
Speaker 3:That's like to me, me, that's in my neighborhood, yes, yes, so, so the, so the big, the biggest is to go to hamburg or to munich, and this uh um to munich, I think, uh, about four hours, uh to to hamburg, about six hours, and that's it, so you can reach everything by car.
Speaker 1:I can drive for eight hours and still not leave the state. Coming from somewhere like Iceland, which is so small, to me, that just is. It's insane. So we are up on time. Is there anything, any last-minute additions anyone wants to make?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just want to say that I wasn't in the frame, but I was listening to him talking about how even Siemens sometimes asks them for help, and so you as a company, like anyone in the US, wants to build a relationship with the entirety of, like Bro Moose, because there's no reason you shouldn't do that, and uh, yeah. So I mean, if you want to be on the forefront of whatever Siemens is going to do, these are your partners for that, and at the same time, they're also your partners for cybersecurity, which is the most emerging thing right now. So really, they've got everything covered, so you should hit them up. Um, and if you don't hit them up, like I'm going to hit them up and uh, yeah, so you can buy it through me They'll be supported by the experts at Gromus underneath.
Speaker 1:There you go. Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:That's our skills pitch for the day. Also, uh, that's our sales pitch for the day. Also, like and follow us on YouTube. We have a YouTube channel and on LinkedIn, and we hope to have some more videos coming out later this year as we increase the size of our team at Automation Ladies. Right now we have zero time for it, so if you see our videos, they are completely unedited and live and just on LinkedIn and YouTube, where they got streamed. Conversations like this have no video out anywhere yet because we have no time or expertise in video editing. If you do and you hear this and you want to be part of our team, hit me up in the DMs on LinkedIn or Nikki at automationladiesio. Otherwise, yeah, let's sign off and then, michael, just don't leave the studio just yet, both of you until your uploads are complete. But, thank you, bye-bye.
