Automation Ladies
The podcast where girls talk industrial automation!
We interview people from all walks of life in the Industrial Automation industry. Through a personal narrative/conversational framework we talk about PLCs, SCADA, IIoT, Machine Vision, Industrial Robots, Pneumatics, Control Systems, Process Automation, Factory Automation, Systems Integration, Entrepreneurship, Career Stories, Personal Journeys, Company Culture, and any other interesting and timely topic we want to discuss.
Co-Hosted by Nikki Gonzales, Ali G & Courtney Fernandez - find them on LinkedIn!
Automation Ladies
Gender Dynamics, Mentorship, and Innovation w/ Christine Lee and Mara Pillott
Challenging existing norms and community are the keys to navigating the ever-evolving realm of industrial automation
Join us along with Mara Pillott and Christine Lee in addressing the changing landscape of remote work, the intricate gender dynamics, and the urgent demand for inventive solutions to the engineering skill gap in the industrial automation sector.
Through humor and reflections, Christine Lee and Mara Pillott from Inductive Automation shine a light on the vital role of mentorship, role models, inclusive cultures, and strong training programs, exploring transformative paths into automation engineering.
Huge thank you to Inductive Automation for sponsoring this episode!
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Co-Hosts are Alicia Gilpin Director of Engineering at Process and Controls Engineering LLC, Nikki Gonzales Director of Business Development at Weintek USA, and Courtney Fernandez Robot Master at FAST One Solutions.
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Get in touch with us at automationladies.io!
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Yay, all right, welcome to a special episode of Automation Ladies in which we are recording in a rare lull. I guess for us Automation Ladies over here, we're taking a little bit of a break, recovering from OT Skatecon, our first community event. But how timely, then, that we made room for this conversation right now. Then. That we made room for this conversation right now, um, because ali and I, around this time last year, uh had what we called our first um automation ladies leadership team off-site, which actually just happened to be because we met up in folsom, california, uh, at to attend icc inductive automation, ignition community conference, which inspired us in a lot of ways to want to do some sort of event of our own that had a community feeling to it.
Speaker 1:We really loved ICC. It's the first place where we met one of our guests today, christine Lee. She introduced us when we did a talk about the sort of origin story of Automation Ladies, so we are joined by Christine's colleague, mara today as well. So we just look forward to having a fun conversation, learning a little bit more about their backgrounds, what they've got going on, what's coming up, and then Allie is here as well today. So, Allie, you want to say hi, hi?
Speaker 2:everyone Love Ignition.
Speaker 1:We love to hear that you want to say hi, hi, everyone, love ignition. Shout out to inductive automation for sponsoring both automation ladies and ot skater con. Um, we had given I had given this invite out to christine lee well before they sponsored the show. Um, but I just, yeah, give a great shout out to our sponsorship and marketing coordinator now, emily, and from the Susan Wilson from the inductive automation side for kind of helping us corral the time and the place and getting these ladies on for us. So thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1:It is August now, a couple of weeks, about three weeks before ICC. This episode is actually not going to air until later this year during, uh, season five. So I just like to make the listeners aware in case there's like time, things we discuss. That will be weird, but yeah, we're in the middle of like trade show season, things are, things are busy. So I really appreciate you guys joining us. Thank you so much. Welcome, christine and Mara. Thank you, thanks for helping Absolutely, and I'm really glad you guys suggested coming on together because it's fun that we get to have a conversation not just with one person. But, as we discussed a little bit before we started recording you guys have, you know, had different tenures. Mara's been at Inductive Automation a lot longer. Christine just joined. What was it last year or two years ago now?
Speaker 4:Yeah, last year. Mara is actually my direct manager oh, very cool.
Speaker 1:So we also have a manager relationship to explore here, so that's pretty cool. And then ali and I I, yeah, let's not get into our relationship. I don't know, I'm woefully underperforming with all kinds of counseling. So, mara, I'll start with you and our first question Can you just introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners? And really the main thing that we kind of want to dig into, to start our journey of curiosity about you, is to learn how the heck did you get into industrial automation and tell us as much as you are willing about your journey to get to where you are today.
Speaker 3:So my name is Mara Pillai. I am thrilled to be here and I'm thrilled to see all of you. So I showed I got into automation in 2010. I didn't even know what a PLC was. I had no idea this kind of thing existed. I was simply looking for a job. I had a background in computer science. I've been doing some you know front-end, you know user interfaces with databases but I didn't have a lot. I didn't have really any manufacturing experience. I saw this job ad. I downloaded the Ignition software before I went to the interview and I thought, wow, this is really cool, you can. This job ad. I downloaded the ignition software before I went to the interview and I thought, wow, this is really cool, you can. You can see all these things in a factory and I had watched this show called how it's made and and.
Speaker 3:I just had no idea that people have. Yeah, of course we do, yeah. So I went to this interview and you know, back then it was small, it was just the integration piece of what is today Index of Automation. I was interviewed by Wendy Lynn Heckman, who is one of the co-founders, and we just immediately clicked and I was wearing like a suit, like you did, and she said well, you know, you're going to need to wear some jeans and like boots and you're going to be going to factories. And so she thought, man, is this person too girly, like I, really like her? Does she understand where she's going? And I did. I was thrilled. So I mean, really, that's how I got here. I just started learning ignition and they told me the first thing I was going to do was go out to this winery and I was going to be working in a construction trailer with with some guys and this was the world right.
Speaker 3:They were controls engineers and PLC engineers and and electrical engineers, and they were almost all guys and what I and I got along with them, great we're. We're still friends to this day. I'm not going to mention names, but somebody knows who he is, and what I found out later was you know, my boss went and told the guys that you know a girl was going to be working in the trailer with them and they were going to have to clean up their language and their jokes a little bit. And one of them said does this mean we can't fart in the trailer anymore? And to this day I bring it up whenever I see that engineer of how you say you saved all those guys from those farts.
Speaker 1:I probably did. Um, now my question is, though did you say yes, no, you have to start stop farting in the trailer. Or did you say well, girls, fart too. Why can't I fart in the trailer? And?
Speaker 2:no, no, farting, no, no farting, everybody's fart band we are not having this here, um, but I'll.
Speaker 3:I'll run into him at icc this year and I will embarrass him again with that story, um that's pretty awesome.
Speaker 2:You're like you're not gonna fat fart ban me, are you? Yes, yes. You're like, yeah, I'm gonna do it about me. That actually reminds me in 1995, uh, my college that I went to started letting women in and, uh, the the water usage like tripled because the men started taking showers of course they did because there's chicks in their classes.
Speaker 1:Now they're like I guess I should not smell like this, like the savage that I am, I'm just imagining whoever was looking at that usage data and like what intent they inferred from that before they realized that it's a social thing, like, if you think of it from like a building management perspective or an energy efficiency, are we losing all this water?
Speaker 3:I'll get that into our water treatment. Demo number of women on premises.
Speaker 1:It's related. Oh, that's hilarious. I will say I mean it. Just, the industry is what it is and I think we're all getting better, and that's part of what we're trying to do at automationation, ladies, is just open the door or like open the window, I don't know. Show more people through the window. That automation, industrial automation, exists, like you said.
Speaker 2:you didn't even know that it was really that's pretty creepy that we're looking through windows.
Speaker 4:Once we got there.
Speaker 1:I love it, nikki, but like at ICC, it was at a college campus and like this is last year that we attended ICC, elevate and I was, I remember, like thinking, wow, there's so many more men's restrooms, like where are the women's restrooms? And then I realized it's because you've like rebranded the many of the women's restrooms as men's, because why would you have like a huge line at the men's and then all these empty women's restrooms everywhere? Yeah, but I think restrooms and showers are are one way to like that. Really it's, it's an objective indicator, right?
Speaker 3:change too. I used to have the women's restroom all to myself, and that's not true anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the one of the possible benefits that's disappearing as we bring more women into the industry is is the wide open restrooms.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I love it. I love how the face of this industry has changed. I mean, I I just really can't say that I worked with any any guys that I didn't like. Like I said, some of them are lifelong friends. I just felt like it would be nice to have a woman around once in a while, and we always had women in leadership and sometimes I worked with women who ran businesses, but not necessarily in the engineering side right and all of a sudden they look around and there's all these women that are, that are here, and even on my team we have we have three women women on my team, we have myself, we have Christine and we have Anna. He used to work in our, in our dev, and that's. That's great. I don't feel so alone anymore.
Speaker 1:It is nice and I didn't know what I was missing Because I, just like you, had never, I never had a problem working with men, or mostly men, or being one of the only women in the room. Yeah, it has its, you know few downsides and things like that. But, um, I was kind of used to that, I think. And again, taking the more technical path, you're kind of used to that from school even. It didn't bother me. But then I met Allie and I was like, oh, it actually is really nice. Yeah, little girls, that a you can relate to about that, but then b are also into you know, the automation stuff. So, christine, I'll let you go next. Then you want to tell us, uh, yeah, how did you get into this and, I guess, what time frame? Um, was that for you?
Speaker 4:So I have a similar trajectory with Mara as well. So I also stumbled into the automation industry on accident, a stroke of luck. So I switched from biology major pre-med to computer science going into my junior year. So I was just like packed in all the classes and by senior year I was like I need an internship or a job lined up. So panic, panic, panic, panic.
Speaker 4:Applied anything that I could find in LinkedIn and I found an internship for automation engineer. I was like I have no idea what this is Like. Are you talking about? Like automation, like code automating, like automation, like code automating. So applied and I've got an interview and I was eventually hired and, like mara said what the heck is a plc? Like what what's with all these? Like yeah, what's a skate up? I mean it was to the point because I was pure programming at the point. It was to the point where it's like do can you help me with a wire pole? Like cable poles? And like do you want me to like physically pull a cable? But anyway, so stumble into that realm.
Speaker 4:And one of the first things that I had to do as an intern was go on inductive university and learn about ignition, and I graduated in 2020, so peak COVID and peak lockdown. So I started my career in this industry fully remote lifted. I got to go on site with my steel-tipped boots, my hard hat, my flashy flashy high-vis vest. My first job site was a bourbon distillery and I learned a lot on site and I really got the taste of you know, like being a systems integrator, what that entails, both off-site and on-site, and I really just fell in love with automation as a whole. But I really really fell in love with the HMI SCADA aspect Because I will say I'm a visual person, so being able to design what the operators will interact on a daily basis, keeping people in mind and not necessarily only data, was really fascinating to me.
Speaker 2:Were you good at like presentations when you were little? Why? Because usually like HMI people like they want, like, they're just like presenters, like at heart, so like you used to make like boards when you were a kid and like PowerPoint presentations. And you're just like obsessed about the font and like the colors and the border and the pictures and the ratios.
Speaker 4:I've been like a presentation person but I've always been um really into like crafts and arts. I think it was another way for me to like tap into that creative side of me beyond like programming, where it's like screens you gotta make this presentable, um, and actually um, nice, nice to look at and not burn your eyes.
Speaker 4:But I also had a stroke of luck with landing a job at IA and as an application engineer and I just thoroughly love my job and I just tapping into that. Women in leadership and also just like mentorship roles at my systems integrator role, just like mentorship roles, um, at my systems integrator role, there was a phenomenal um engineer who was a woman. I looked up to her and I still do. Her name is Vicky. Um, hi, vicky, if you're listening to this, but she was incredible and it was really good to like get into this industry that I was like I don't know anything, I really don't um and have that. I was like I don't know anything, I really don't Um and have that confidence of like oh, here's someone who's really tried and tested and true and just very seasoned veteran who is so incredible in her um, her work and she's thriving on site and she's well respected and, um, it felt like a good environment for me because I know they're like just having that figure was just enough for me.
Speaker 4:And also, um joining ia. I mean mara's my uh manager. She was my manager from day one. There's another female figure that I like looked up to and I still look up to um. She's my like go-to if I have any questions, oh my god, yeah, if I have any questions, and even just that like um, you know that reassurance, that like if I am not having a good day or if I'm not sure of myself, like I could I have someone to turn to. And I think just even looking around me in IA in general, it's like there's that female figure or like just a good source of like mentorship everywhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd say you in a way lucked out into early in your career, falling into companies that have cultures that like intentionally train people and try to hire diverse people. I know, um, yeah, one of the things that initially made us excited when we met people from Gray your previous you know systems integration, hope it's okay to say we're great friends as well. And Sam James from Gray Solutions made the song the music for Automation Ladies. By the way, in case you didn't know, what a wonderful person.
Speaker 1:He is. He is a wonderful person and he came up to us at Automate and he just, you know, he explained as well that, like he's worked at places in the industry that don't feel culturally like a place that he wants to support and that he really, you know, see that sees that change in the industry. And so I find that I kind of end up latching on to people that that give me that feeling that that's what they're interested in. I find that I kind of end up latching onto people that that give me that feeling, um, that that's what they're interested in. That's the type of like they want to foster this community and make it more accessible to the next generation. Um, whatever that is. But, like, definitely not every company in the industry gives me those vibes, um, and many people end up working for some of the ones that are, you know, I guess, maybe less intentional about that and what I found in early in my career.
Speaker 1:I started with a company called Keyence. They train new people out of college, so you don't have to have the experience. But many of the other vendors in the industry they don't really have a training program, so they just expect to hire people that already have the industry experience, which can make it harder to be more diverse, because then you're limited to the talent pool that has, like, already come up in the industry, versus opening yourself up and being willing to train newer engineers. It is an investment, certainly, but I think that's also kind of what you have to look at. If you really want to, you know, diversify your teams and make it more open, then you kind of what you have to look at. If you really want to, you know, diversify your teams and make it more open, then you kind of have to be willing to take on some training as well aspects and bringing people either from that are earlier on in their career or just even from, like, let's say, adjacent industries like software engineering. That's, I think, is a huge opportunity for our industry today, because so many of the big tech companies are laying off and stuff like that and we really need more people in our industry is how do we attract more people from the pure software? And it looks like we are doing a decent job I just saw contributed to the LinkedIn post today.
Speaker 1:Somebody in my network was like hey, I have a friend that's a front-end developer that's interested in learning all about this PLC and HMI. I want you to get into industrial automation. You know what resources do you have for someone, so I guess that would be a question. Do you guys have some tips for our fellow computer science graduates or engineers that maybe have been in more traditional software engineering roles that don't, you know, deal with any kind of controls? What would you say to hype them up, to get them to come check out controls, engineering or or the related disciplines, right, skate or or whatever?
Speaker 4:Oh gosh. So my, I think I kind of empathize with that whole ordeal because I was coming in from like a pure programming perspective, also without any just industrial or just career experience period. Um, what really helped me was someone taking a chance on me, um which, like I said, stroke of luck. Um, I will always be grateful for that person. His name is Alex and he really trusted in me to just grow in the role. And I wasn't the only one that he trusted. Also another fellow engineer from my old job, greg, his name's Brad. He was also a pure computer science person. He was actually kind of like the quote-unquote guinea pig. That sounds really bad, but it's really not. But yeah, he was the first person that Alex really trusted to be like okay, he's just a pure programmer. Um, I believe he was doing also front end of things before landing a job as an automation engineer that I said okay, let's see how it works.
Speaker 4:Um, taking a purely software engineer and just seeing how they grow into an automation controls engineer and, honestly, brad is one of the um, one of the best engineers that I know so like did a really good job, awesome um, and I'd like to think that I'm at least a decent engineer too, um, in this field, but you're pretty good Christine thank you, but it really helps to have you know like people really take a chance on you.
Speaker 4:But also take a chance on yourself to have that confidence to be like I don't know this, I really don't. But I want to learn and I'm going to keep learning and if it's hard I will ask questions. I don't want like there's no such thing as a stupid question. So definitely taking a chance on yourself to really watch yourself grow in a very new role. I mean, whenever I had, I started off like having a pretty bad imposter syndrome and I'll be honest, like it's still not. I don't think I will be like completely over an imposter syndrome, because there's always something to learn, there's always something new, um, but definitely trusting in myself to learn and to be confident in my work and um also being open to any criticisms or any help, that if someone's like hey, it looks like I can help you with x, y and z, can I help you? Or even just reaching out and say I'm not sure if I know this 100% or understand this 100%, can you help me? So yeah, that was a really long winded answer, um no, I wonder.
Speaker 2:I wonder, I wonder if gen z, because I think are you're, are you gen z? Yes, yeah. So I wonder if Gen Z, because I think are you Gen Z, yes. So I wonder if Gen Z is just like I love. Like you just said, you're like I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know how to do this, I don't know this and like I don't know.
Speaker 2:That even millennials ever were just like super open about that and like as much as we were at least understanding that people like don't know everything, no-transcript, just that, being able to just be like I don't know anything, and I felt like I knew that I didn't know anything, but it wasn't something I could even talk about, and I didn't feel comfortable being like, hey, going to my you know people around me and being like I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 2:And now we can do that. And I feel like that's just going to help us so much because we can just be freaking honest that we don't know what's going on. Because that's the fastest way to the actual answer is to say it now and then be like and the people that do know they're like okay, well, well, at least you're not lying to me. They're like okay, well, at least you're not lying to me or you're not being boastful or whatever, because that's actually what stopped a lot of people's progress is oh, I know what I'm doing, and then you don't know what you're doing, and then you just go hide or research and you're like, just tell them, you suck and you're going to be fine, they're going to help you. Oh my God, Like if you could just let your freaking uh pride go, you will skyrocket to the damn moon yeah, I feel like I'm gonna get a little tangent here and then we'll bring this back tomorrow.
Speaker 1:But you know, a lot of things are changing in our world and ai is one of those big things that's here and we're all wondering how it's gonna to affect us. I feel like at this point, the same thing just or you could call it Google, like basic information is available everywhere. There's tutorials and all kinds of things. Now, what is going to separate someone is their, like their context around the information, right, their experience with a certain thing. Like, I can look up a basic how to on YouTube. Now I don't need to pay a person for a basic. What I need is the context as to which video to use, when or what to do if it doesn't work, those sorts of things. And I think and I don't know if this is a shift like I know, in our business, I'm starting to see it more and more my company and Ali's company that we actually want people to just play to their strengths and we want to be more honest about when they struggle and so that a we can actually construct higher performing teams where we're not forcing someone to act on a weakness consistently and then we pair up people with strengths and weaknesses to help each other Right, and we move forward a lot quicker that way than everyone pretending that they're at a 10 or at an eight and all of the things, and I know everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I feel like when I was graduating from business school and this was not that long ago, but like 15 years ago I was very much told, like make sure that you have all of these things on your resume, even if they weren't even true about me, like detail oriented and you know these things that were just like this is what you need to have, and you also must wear pantyhose and no pants. Like I literally was told when I graduated that I couldn't go to a job interview without wearing a skirt suit and pantyhose. I had to borrow money from my family to go buy a skirt suit at Ann Taylor, because they don't sell them in like regular stores. This is in our damn lifetime.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, like I said I went to my interview at inductive automation in a suit, right, and it was a suit. And as soon as you said pantyhose, it just brought back my mother, like no, that is not appropriate. You have to have the proper undergarments, christine has. Have you ever owned a pair of pantyhose? I mean, this is no, no hell no.
Speaker 1:I remember my dad too. He had this executive assistant who turned into like he had a small business and she, of course, ended up like running the damn thing. But she ended up working for my dad because she was like I interviewed and she, she like, one job she didn't get because she wore pants. And again, this was like when I was in high school. So I was just like, oh I, I, I must wear the skirt, but how? It has nothing to do with your ability to carry out the job, just maybe making you uncomfortable. But yeah, I would like to hear from your perspective uncomfortable, but I would like to hear from your perspective what has changed, I think for the better, if you want to comment, since you started and obviously now you interview people, is there anything that, from your perspective, like you used to expect and now you're like I shouldn't expect that from people what sort of changes have you seen?
Speaker 3:I mean, I'm fairly new to management and I was really and I was lucky because the previous manager of our of our team is now the manager of our division and I do get mentorship from him. Thank you, kent Melville. Shout out and I'd like my credit later. But I think as we've grown as a company too I mean my whole history here is is we were so small when I started an inductive automation so I got to see that and I got to see the industry change and I got to see the technology grow and I think also how we treat people grow. When I started we didn't have these resources right, so we took someone like me and we sent them off to a winery and we didn't see them for months and we kind of laughed like, oh, sink or swim, right, you'll either make it or you won't. And we don't treat new hires like that now, and that is so much for the better. We send them to inductive university if they're if they haven't already, you know, gone through gone through that process. Mostly we're looking for that experience. But it's hard to find people with that experience. So I think a big thing we look for is is the ability to learn your, your team player skills? Can you communicate? Will you tell us you don't. You don't know something right Because it's going to change all the time? You don't, you don't know something right Because it's going to change all the time. I don't need you to know everything when you get here. I need you to to be part of a team, to be willing to contribute. You know you can't.
Speaker 3:I see people like that from time to time, that they they believe they know everything, so they're never going to learn something Right. And we don't have that on our team because we can't. So we're constantly having to pick things up and we and we do have more mentorship now, and it's also important to us when we hire somebody that they understand a little bit of the history of our company. You know not just the software and the products that we make, but you know kind of how we interact with the market, how, how we like to be pretty open. You know, like inductive university is free.
Speaker 3:Why? Because we want people to learn it right. We don't. We want more people to know about it. Um, and I, and I love that, I love watching all of this change and the the whole thing is just. It just feels so much more dynamic and modern than it felt, you know, back in the day when, when it was just like you've got your skater system and you've got like one server in your factory and like maybe you have a few thousand tags and now it's this oh, you can have servers all over the world and you've got the internet of things and we're going to start looking at AI. I mean, there's a huge shift.
Speaker 1:Definitely, I think, an area that a curious person willing to learn will not get bored.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's why I'm still here. I never get bored.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to add that you know, I love that there are companies like induction you, you know Inductive Automation that are big enough because, like I have a small company, and like big enough that they can properly mentor their people so they don't 100% throw them at sink or swim. But I do believe, like that there's some balance there that is the perfect balance, that there's some balance there that is the perfect balance. And like, so, like I feel that like me and you, mara, like we were thrown into sink or swim, like abusively possibly, and like and like I I don't know I said yes when every other technician said absolutely not. And so I think that I did a lot of things in my job where I was just it was abusive, I think, because I was like that, I did a lot of things in my job where I was just it was abusive. I think, um to, because I was like I'm going to, I'm going to try it for myself and like so I want to meet somewhere halfway, cause, like I don't want my people to eat it, like that, I don't want to leave them like that, a hundred percent to their own, like, even though I believe in them, I absolutely believe in them, but I'm like I can help you and mentorship is extremely important part of that, and so it's like how much do we let them sink? Because I do believe, I do swear, that like part of who I am and what I've been able to do is related to when I was drowning and what I was able to do to get out of it, and so I don't want to take it a hundred percent away, but like that was too much and that's unnecessary, and like almost like it costs companies money, like there's gotta be like a middle ground where it's like we will still pay for you to mess up, but like you shouldn't be a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:Like no support, no, anything, totally on yourself, and that's what a lot of us like, that's how we, a lot of us were made Um, and they just said and like the fact that we're still here is like our own grit and our own like just passion, cause everyone else is just like this is abusive, I'm leaving and they did, and actually that's part of why women are actually mostly gone, even though there's actually more graduates, um, ladies in our fields, like STEM fields, then the ones that actually stay in the industry, like they're not the same numbers, and there's a reason, and it's because they're like I don't have to fight this. Why? Why? Why, if you're not quite this hard, sure? Um, yeah, and like I felt like I needed to prove myself and I feel like a lot of women did that same thing.
Speaker 2:We're like we're gonna prove ourselves and we did, and it's just like at this point I'm like I don't feel like there's anything to prove. Like can we go back to doing this in a healthy way? Um, because that wasn't healthy, and like I don't even feel like that was even worth proving. Like there's nothing to prove. Women can do all of your weird field jobs, the end next.
Speaker 3:There's nothing to argue like yeah, yeah, can we just move past this? No, it is a balance, right, because I I did too. Like, yeah, I learned from just, I'm just gonna stick it out if some you know controls engineers yelling no and shoving at my screen and telling me that's horrible, no sleep, yeah Right, no sleep.
Speaker 2:I'm going to do it. No validation.
Speaker 3:You're told you're the worst engineer they've ever seen. Yeah, Luckily I didn't have it that bad, but yeah, there were some abusive customers out there though, for sure.
Speaker 2:Definitely, customers will abuse you. They actually expect to pay. They feel like they're paying to abuse you. They actually expect to pay. Great, they, they feel like they're paying to abuse you. Yeah, I did, but you don't get paid for the actual abuse itself. You just get paid by the company. But you don't get like the abuse tax. Yeah, and your company gets all the tax for the abuse. They're like oh, we love you guys. I just get to super, be mean to all of your workers.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was out there and I I don't know how much of that still goes on right, cause I'm I'm a little more insulated now. I'm inside here and we're doing internal projects and I I get to give my team a different experience and I certainly hope that's changing out there. I'm just I'm not out there. But yeah, I hear you, there were customers out there that were just, they were just in toxic environments. Their their own employees weren't getting treated well either.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I do try to shine a light on that, just like, don't you know, we don't have to paint the entire industry with a broad brush. There are changes that the entire industry with a broad brush, there are changes that the entire industry needs. But then there's companies that are more ahead or better than others and, like I, it pains me when I see a woman in particular but anybody leave the industry because of a bad employer, when really they just needed a. If they were really passionate about the work, they just needed a better company to work for. But in in the industry, for sure, I actually found I kind of left the industry and I ended up in a different role and I missed it. I missed the automation, I missed the physical machinery, I missed pneumatics and motors and you know, when I was in more like software and data and supply chain. So to me there was something about the industry that called me back, but then I had a really like at that point. There was something about the industry that called me back, but then I had a really like at that point. I was old enough and I had done some other things and I had learned a bit more about myself and my self-worth and that just because even if I was in sales like I didn't have to just smile and nod at everything and take the insults or whatever, and I haven't had any of those problems since. I came back kind of like with that attitude.
Speaker 1:But I also chose a company to work for, specifically now, where I looked at the culture and I was like I want to make sure that it's actually a place I want to work and I know the industry can be hard and the work out there is tough. But it's way tougher if you don't have a team at home quote unquote at your company or in your. You know your leadership that then you can lean on. I think it's a lot easier to deal with the crappy customers when you can go lean on someone like your mentor or somebody at your own organization. But if you have a crappy customer and then a crappy manager, um, that's where I think it's not worth it. Don't stick it out Like find another employer in the space, because there are plenty of companies that don't want to see you drown like that or think that it's okay.
Speaker 1:But I, like Ali, I learned a lot of with you know, in my being thrown into the fire kind of situations. So I'm also like always it's hard to say like, oh the you know, we should just eliminate all of the problems we had for the younger generation so that they don't have to deal with any of it. But then at the same time it's like, well, what do they don't have to deal with any of it? Um, but then at the same time it's like, well, what do they? How are they gonna learn some of that then? But it's like, how do you strike the balance? I think that's a tough one really. You gotta because you have to let people eventually like sink or swim or try to be out there and not be completely coddled and supported with everything learn from your mistakes I mean, if I look back at some of the first projects.
Speaker 3:I hope they're gone. I hope somebody deleted them forever, because I know I made terrible mistakes and I didn't know. But you have to learn from that yeah, there's no way.
Speaker 2:There's no way to make a real engineer without um, I call it eating shit sandwiches, but really just means like you're, you don't know what to do and you're actually, like you know, freaked out, and then you just make a decision and then you just are accountable for your decision and you go to your management and you're like this is what I decided to do in this case, and what do you think? And and but be accountable for it? Sure.
Speaker 3:And maybe that's some of the things that we could mentor. You know, I know sometimes you know when we were working with customers we had to get things done very quickly on a timeline and you know you want to be able to try every solution to get the most optimal solution and sometimes you don't have that luxury and you just have to pick something. And that's definitely something as a manager I've run into is encouraging my people to say, like I understand you want to explore everything, but you might just have to pick something and go with it Right, and we might just not know and be able to explore every last corner. And I like that. I can explain some of those things Right, and sometimes they know more technical things than I do because they just went out and learned something, Right, yeah, but I I kind of know the framework and the, the backgrounds and and the kind of overall like how do we keep this thing on course better than they do?
Speaker 1:And that's why I think we make such a great, such a better combo as, like, if we look at like these generational differences, because there are a lot more of them now technologically than, let's say, we had between generations in the past.
Speaker 1:But that like and Allie can maybe speak to this a little bit better, but the way that she structures a lot of the work at her company is there are subject matter experts that have a lot more experience and then they're paired with the younger engineers to be a resource and the younger engineers have resources and think of things that you know. Somebody that has been out in the field for you know 15, 20 years maybe wouldn't. So it goes both ways, like you can learn both ways. And my CEO, roman, brings up a good point. Sometimes he had a project at Apple where his engineers were telling him that they should do something that they were like no, that's impossible, you can't do it, and they totally proved him wrong. Like it was possible but the technology wasn't around back when he was doing it that would have made it possible.
Speaker 1:So sometimes you have to, yeah, that combo of like working together and I think that just speaks to like diversity on teams in general. You have a lot more I don't know chance of innovation and success when you have different, those different perspectives, like filling in the gap. Allie, do you want to talk any more about that whole like mentoring and SME stuff? I'm sorry to have brought up an example from your business.
Speaker 2:No, I mean everything that I do. It comes from like survival slash, circumstance right. Like I don't have. I'm bootstrapped, I don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay, you know, $150,000 salaries to, and 401k and insurance to, like the cream of the crop, engineers. I had to go be like, well, how am I going to do this? I'm good, right, I'm good, right, I'm good, but what can I afford to even help me? And how do I move from me being the only one that can do anything? Um to that.
Speaker 2:And like, I realized that, like I am a subject matter expert, but I could hire, on a contract basis, other other subject matter experts so that I didn't have to do that stuff all the time, so that I could refocus, because I am decent at sales, I'm an engineer myself and I shied away super hard. I didn't want anything to do with sales or marketing. And then I ended up being good at it and I'm like, well, now what? So now I want to leverage, I want to bring my company work, and I can't do that if I'm doing the subject, you know, if I'm the subject matter expert. And so that was a way to like decouple some of the things that I am good at and just like, let them just do that so I can bring in veterans and they give them a better rate, like if they do the engineering themselves. That's not SME. Sme is someone who is overseeing. It's an engineering manager that's overseeing the work of another engineer and those engineers are doing the work. But I have built into the way that I quote, you know, the work that there's an engineering SME that's going to review that and that obviously the hours, the hours are ratio. There's a ratio right, like you don't need if there's 10 engineering hours, you don't need 10 SME hours. It's like there's 10, you maybe you need two to five SME hours to review that if the engineer spent 10. So I just try to figure out, like how do I get? And then at the same time I can give you know a regular engineering work to some of these subject matter experts. But I can. You know I can only build so much and so I think I want to find a way to train the next generation. And what?
Speaker 2:The first place I ever saw it, I worked in aerosol machinery for a second and the guy who let me take over what he was doing because he's like I'm not traveling? I refuse. He was giving mechanical like they're not even controls people. He was giving mechanical technicians um team viewer and a laptop and showing them how to connect that laptop to the plc. And he was getting his own technicians who were traveling anyway because they were putting the machine together to let him in and do the io checkout and the functional checkout with the technician, when the controls engineer's not even there. And he was doing this successfully and I was like, oh shit, um, there's something here that he's doing, that there's and there's so many veteran uh controls people that are ready to just like not travel ever again.
Speaker 2:But they would totally sit in their living room and be like, yes, johnny, now do this like you know, or whoever jamal, I don't care like tell the technician what to do, um, or and or get like a team viewer, be like, okay, let's get on whatsapp or face app or whatever the hell you guys call it the, the shit from apple. And be like facetimeTime yeah, let's get on FaceTime. And you show me the problem that you're seeing. And then you explain that to me and I'm looking at the PLC already. So I'm in the PLC, you tell me what you physically see and they can, I swear to God, they can close these projects out. And so that is the future.
Speaker 2:I think, and I think that you know, there's going to be a lot more people that don't want to travel and they're not going to travel because I'm not going to make them. And I think that there's going to be a lot more people that are young and they're ready to travel because it's the first part of their life and they're ready to, you know, give the first 10 years or whatever, before they settle down to these. You know companies, and I think that there's a, there's a pairing here. That's just natural. And if you can figure out how to not make everyone angry, like and the customer like you, there's a goldmine to be had and we are trying our luck at that creative like that, because I hear this a lot.
Speaker 3:Right, we are. We are losing these controls, engineers, and we need more and we are going to have to get creative. And as soon as you said that, I thought of the panic, right that somebody, oh, but I can't have my. You can't control things if you're outside the network, but you do have somebody in place right there, physically. Right, you're doing this you know?
Speaker 2:yeah, you can unplug them.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, the panic.
Speaker 2:They're just not a programmer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're going to have to have some creative solutions to get through this, because we are losing these people and I I hope that that we do see more automation and more trades in schools, because we're losing everybody. We're losing the electricians in these plants and you know the guys that can get the pumps working again. You know as well as the control.
Speaker 2:All the high bidders like that's the only ones who get. What they want is if you pay top dollar. Everybody else, little companies, are screwed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. And if we could just get that, you know, along with this industrial automation in schools. I mean, I can't solve everything At least we are trying to get our software into schools and teach people that this career exists, Right? I mean, I did things like oh, I need to move these student records from here to here, and you know this curriculum, you know planning screen needs to be up for this teacher, for a school district. It's not that different, right? I need to make sure that your business process moves smoothly through this, and somebody with a software background, with some kind of understanding of processes, can do that, maybe without having that knowledge. So if we could just make people more aware that this is here and make people more aware that maybe you should learn to program a plc or, you know, get into this factory automation I. I would love to see that change in our educational system.
Speaker 1:So would we, and it's actually interesting that you mentioned so we talked a little bit earlier. You guys are making a push to get your software into schools. At what level? Just college level, community college level, or what level do you think is appropriate to start getting at least these ideas in front of kids?
Speaker 3:I think elementary school is appropriate. Right, I know you do work with a company that makes some kits for kids. I think any level is appropriate. I would like to see it in high school yeah, I would, why not? High schoolers can learn about electrical boards and, honestly, I think kids can learn a lot earlier than that.
Speaker 1:I think, and it's an interesting, I guess, maybe observation. I grew up in Iceland in elementary school and I moved to the U S in middle school and one of the things that I thought was like a stark difference was how little kids are trusted with here in terms of like they expect you not to be able to handle anything or do anything. And part of that is maybe like our society here is very litigious, um, whatever reason. But I remember I learned I used, I took wood shop in fourth grade, got to use like a large saw and all kinds of tools that here, like when I was in middle school, they were like, oh no, you have to wait until high school to even touch that, and I'm like I don't why I did that when I was like eight. Um, wow, and you know sewing right, a lot of these things, cooking, we took cooking classes, you know, with a real stove, and I felt like I came here and I was kind of treated like, oh no, you can't possibly do any of these things, they're not safe, they're not for you. And I think we've kind of kept all these industrial things hidden from kids because somehow they're not appropriate and not safe, um, which is, you know, obviously you don't want to put industrial electronics or whatever into like kids' hands and just say, like, go for it, um, but the idea is, if you teach them how to do it responsibly or get them started somehow, then you know there's no reason why they can't learn it. Just it requires a lot more oversight. Right, and if you give a kid a power tool or whatever, um, but I think we will fully underestimate how much kids are capable of. And that may be a function of the kind of, you know, school system which was devised a very long time ago, which made it to where we didn't have a level of like fidelity or technology to be able to assess individual skills. So it was like what fits the average, what fits the whole, who can? What is something that everyone can do, and now you know we're in 2024, we have the ability to use software and all kinds of other things to personalize things more or gauge somebody's aptitude for something. We were actually just discussing this in relation to our business as well, but like skill matrices for engineers, so that we know who knows what and who can be trained up on what. Same thing with doing like personality tests, because, oh lo and behold, not everybody's the same and if you know how to communicate with them better, then you can actually get. Not everybody's the same and if you know how to communicate with them better, then you can actually get further ahead, things like that. But yeah, kids PLC Kids was inspired and that's Allie's nonprofit. The website is not currently working. It's just low on our priority list to get the website up and running. It's kidsplckidsorg is where you'll find it when it's up and running. But it was like a.
Speaker 1:I think elena day is um, she was nine years old when ali sent her a plc and her dad is a master electrician and he, you know, knows some of this stuff. So obviously she had to have, you know, adult supervision and someone that was able to help her. But she programmed up up a Allen Bradley PLC with connected components workbench and made it, you know, shoot a pneumatically powered rocket in her room and it was like the cool, one of the coolest things I've ever seen. And that's why Allie started kids PLC kits, because she was like, you know what, if the kids have the willingness and aptitude and they have a willing adult instructor, this is entirely possible, and it doesn't have to be some sort of you know, arduino kit for babies.
Speaker 1:You know it's a great to start with all those kind of STEM toys, right, the kids have access to so much of that nowadays. It's crazy. But really like, yeah, even PLCs, like if kids can learn, you know, to code in Python or whatever, I think there's nothing but exposure stopping them from learning. Even if you call it antiquated right, like learn ladder logic or whatever, it's not that hard, it's just not. There's nobody out there saying that, hey, this is cool to learn.
Speaker 3:Well, it could bring that to life, right? You know I was fascinated with computers from an early age and I, you know, learn how to write, you know pick a number between one and 10 games, right, and I remember some of my friends just could not see why that would be interesting. But if you can shoot a rocket off using you know, make some like physical thing happen, how much more engaging is that? Right, and that that was something that attracted me to this industry was. I'm not just kind of writing programs and putting things together that just kind of move data around. People can actually see a process happening or affect how fast or slow that process is moving, and that is just so fascinating. So sure, yeah, why couldn't kids have something that you know is relatively simple but but could really do something?
Speaker 1:yeah, and that's really what we'd love to see is is more of the, the stuff that you actually will see in your career, but to see that earlier in school, not, you know, whatever you can when. I don't want to, I'm not going to crap on chromebooks, um, because that's what they use in schools now, and I hear a a lot of that like, oh well, kids can never learn real engineering because all they have is a Chromebook, which is a valid point, but, like, of course, not every school district can afford an engineering computer for every student. But I was actually just I'm doing an interview at IMTS in a couple of weeks, uh, with the folks at ptc and there's, uh, cad modeling, so they have a cad modeling software. Now that is cloud native, um, and it is used in industry, but it is also you can run it in a browser on a chromebook. So I think it's really just it's our own constraints, like, stopping us from getting this into the hands of kids.
Speaker 1:But that was really interesting and I'm looking forward to that discussion because, like, what made them go? Okay, let's build something cloud native from the start for an audience, for a customer that wants to use it in the cloud From an inductive automation standpoint. You guys have been doing this for a while. A lot has changed in computing since you started. Yes, what have you seen change in terms of, like, customer preferences or even your roadmap wise at Inductive, as the hardware considerations change and as the customers are becoming what more open to potentially cloud, do you guys just kind of give all the options or is there a particular kind of method of delivery that you really suggest to your customers based on, like the on-prem versus other options?
Speaker 3:We really try to make it all available, right, because there are customers that are never going to allow data off-prem that is never going to happen Whereas there's other customers that it's going to give them so much right To allow this to be in the cloud. So we really do try to provide those options. You know, one of the biggest things I've seen change is the distributed architectures. You know you don't have that one gateway connected to your. You know PLCs in this one site, right? So even if you're not allowing access into your PLC data, you can still aggregate this somewhere, right? So that could be your cloud solution. You can build these architectures together. So we're seeing a lot more interest in that, for sure, I think.
Speaker 1:Distributed- architecture is also something we have to look at more closely as we grapple with the cybersecurity implications of all of this, because we just can't say, okay, we'll just air, gap it now and it'll be fine. It's like no, we actually have to have this OT network and it probably will get hacked at some point in time. So how do we mitigate the risk? How do we have OT specific cybersecurity, incident response plans and redundancy and all kinds of things like that? So that in and of itself is like a whole new versioning industry, really. Not that it's brand new, but it's just becoming so more applicable to everyone that if you're also like in this industry and security and cybersecurity like strikes a little bell with you, that is a huge growing opportunity in, you know, operational OT cybersecurity.
Speaker 1:I don't think that you'll ever be wanting for a job if that's somewhere that you decide to jump into at this point. And functional safety even is another one. That Linda Freeman from Rockwell congratulations, linda, if you're listening on your retirement, by the way, another fantastic female role model in the industry. If you guys don't know her, she's a TUV certified functional safety engineer and she was also saying that there's just a huge lack of those in the industry. So again, there's a lot of like specializations and areas to industrial automation that you can, you know, focus on, whether it's because it interests you or if you are one of those people that really thinks about job security and your earning potential and all those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:Not all of the positions in industrial automation, I would say, pay better than other industries necessarily, so you kind of have to really like what you do, but there's tons of opportunities to maximize your earning potential in this industry. Um, it just takes a little bit of looking at, like, maybe, what areas are hot, you know what locations, what industries, um, so I guess we're we're actually coming up on close to an hour here. Uh, and I know Christine unfortunately did your. You said your power went out. Um, let's just be real here. Christine had to drop off the episode for a little while and Allie is currently dropped off for who knows what reason connectivity or otherwise. But that's one of the fun things about having multiple people in a conversation the conversation can move forward.
Speaker 3:Being remote too. We're like all across the country on this team and that's another huge change in this industry, I mean for the entire world. Really. We didn't hire people in other states, right, and we struggled. How are we going to get people to come to Folsom, california, if they're saying, well, housing costs are less expensive where I am? I have small children and my parents are a huge part of my, my childcare and and my you know, my husband has a job here. We're not, we're not both going to leave, and we built this remote team and it really feels so seamless. I just, I have Slack, I have Google me, I I feel like like I know Christine, even though I've only met her in person twice, and I feel that way about my entire team, and here she is getting knocked out by a storm. And if I go outside right now, t-skatercon, where my power was out for a week which stopped me not completely from working, but mostly um.
Speaker 1:But at the same time, like so were physical workers in my area where the power was down, like my brother-in-law works in a warehouse and a lot of their stuff wasn't working because there was no power. So remote teams they've got you know their pros and cons, but I think they are the way of the future, or hybrid, right, partially remote. I know that's also one of the ways that Allie has been able to grow her team. Some things, some positions, have to be local or at least hybrid, but others it kind of doesn't matter where you are and we just that was the case for me. I've actually moved with this job. We've had a couple of our senior people move and that's the nice part about it if they have to move to other life circumstances, they don't have to change their job. So I think that really helps.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and I had a little coffee chat. I also am on slack and I have a colleague in Poland and she unexpectedly had to go pick up her son when we had a meeting scheduled. So she just pinged me. She says, hey, I'm going to be walking, if that's not a problem, like come see my Polish neighborhood during our chat, and I love that, you know. It was really nice. I got a little window into her world and her world as a mom and you know I feel like I know her just as well, if not better, than many of the people that I've worked with in person for years.
Speaker 1:So I fully advocate for the. You know, when you can for the jobs that you can, why not cultivate like remote teams? And I would say you know the business that you guys are in lends itself to that very well. I've talked to quite a few inductive automation like developers or people that work at systems integrators, and the fact that they work with you know they can do a lot of the prep work ahead of time. They may go on site, you know, to go implement things, but that's not the majority of what they do and they find that they get to do less travel working this way than like with the legacy systems that they used to support. Is there anything? I guess this is your. I'll. Now that we're up on about an hour, I'll give you guys both the opportunity to plug whatever you want about inductive automation or ignition at this point, including learn ignition, because you can get more remote jobs in the industry this way. That's my plug for you guys, yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, check us out on LinkedIn, Check out our website. We have case studies, you know. You said what might attract people. I think seeing those case studies gives you a real view into what we could do in the industry. And if you are at all curious, go to Inductive University. Start learning our software.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is free. So, honestly, if you're interested in this industry and you're not taking advantage of at least getting started on the Inductive University, then maybe that's a sign to you that this industry isn't for you, because it does require a bit of a self-starter type of attitude and those resources are readily available and free. So that'll be one of my number one things, that if anybody says, hey, how do I? I'm interested in this industry, how do I get started? It's a no-brainer to point that one out, christine. Anything from your side, it's a no-brainer to point that one out.
Speaker 4:Christine, anything from your side, my brain's kind of like halted from working from that storm If power kept flickering. I mean like welcome to Florida, I guess.
Speaker 1:Is it crazy out right now, or did it calm down Well?
Speaker 4:I mean it's pouring, but that's the case every every afternoon. Honestly, love that we're getting rain, though we needed this. I say that every day, but what can I plug? Yeah, definitely echoing the sentiment that you guys have shared. If you are just even remotely interested in this field, like even people who are, like I don't have any programming experience, like what, like I'm not a programmer, blah blah I've had people who are succeeding in this um field, um designing hmis and like working with just skater in general, um, who were artists.
Speaker 4:So, um, they were graphic artists and they flourished because they know, I mean, they are visual people and just having an open mind of like, oh, I'm not a technical person, it's okay. I mean, if you're interested, go ahead and, you know, check inductive university out, check other things out. Um, the great thing about this industry is that you're not pigeonholed to, you know, like one specific thing of technology. There's so much to learn, there's so much to explore. I'm learning a lot every day, um, there's a lot for me to learn too.
Speaker 4:So I mean, if you are curious, um, tap into that curiosity and, like you said, it does require a little bit of self-starter attitude, um, if you are exploring this, this on your own. If you are employed and like your employer is saying like check this out, maybe you should, you're getting, yeah, you probably. But but also like tap into the industry. People too Like I love it when people reach out to me. Or just like stop me at ICC and ask me questions about ignition, or just okay, cause I was about to ask that's kind of.
Speaker 1:our last question is you can tell us what you have coming up that we should look forward to, if anything, and where can people follow you or reach out to you if they want to, either for business or, in your case, I would say, even like if they are interested, coming from the computer science field into this industry, or if they're a woman in that area, or any of the things that you said during the episode today piqued their interest. Most of our guests are pretty open to connecting with other people in the community, so where can people find you? Where should they follow you?
Speaker 3:linkedin. Yeah, yeah, and we will be at some local career fairs here in the area shortly, um, but that's california specific yeah, linkedin for me.
Speaker 4:Um, I can be a little slow at responding because there are some messages that come in that I'm like I yeah who are you?
Speaker 1:yeah, don't like asking for her to be your career coach also.
Speaker 1:I'm overworking her. I have to tell people, um, if you do want, you know, that kind of valuable networking experience, particularly on LinkedIn, if you have not met a person before, you haven't added value to them in some way before. Like, did your power just go out again, or your lights, I lost it again, but my wi-fi is okay, wow, um, yeah, so I guess. Well, we're about to head off here. So if you do drop off, uh, stay safe. Um, I hope your power is not out for a week, like it was for me last time my power went out it'll be fine.
Speaker 1:I'll just drink rainwater and survive off of gators but yes, people like have a little common sense when you ask strangers for help as well. All of us are really, really willing to mentor and help people, but we're also all working way too much, we're all resource constrained and we want to help you, but help yourself to let us help you. Right? Don't come with a big ask right off the bat. Try to be helpful, try to establish some sort of relationship. Yeah, so we get this a lot in the DMs and I don't want to discourage, I want to encourage people to reach out. But also, you know, hey say, say hey. I listened to you on the automation ladies episode, christine. I loved what you said about you know, xyz, I'd love to connect. That would probably get a response faster than something like tell me how to get into the industry um give me a job or that.
Speaker 4:I can't, I don't have the power, but I am a natural born yapper. If you can get me to yap, I will yap All right.
Speaker 1:So it probably doesn't take too many interactions of trying to add some value to Christine and then give her a stage. So, ladies, with all of the technical difficulties that we've had today, in addition to the power outage and Wi-Fi outage, and now Allie's out, I think we did a fantastic job given our constraints. So I really appreciate you guys joining us. Thank you so much and I hope to see you at ICC again in person next year. I know it's sold out this year, but if you guys haven't, if somebody's listening and you're curious about ICC, they do sell virtual tickets and you can join remotely for a pretty reasonable price, I would say. You get to stream all the sessions and then ICC content, I believe, is provided free about a year or a half a year after the conference, so people can also check out recordings, like from last year's conference, I think, at this point, without having paid that fee. So there's lots and lots of different ways to get involved.
Speaker 3:And lots of good information at no cost.
Speaker 1:Yes, all right, thank you, ladies. Have a wonderful day. Bye.
